In this Episode Tyson talk to Tony Thai, the founder, CEO & Chief Engineer of HyperDraft – a legal tech tooling company that specializes in document automation software for lawyers and legal departments that make drafting simpler, better and faster.  Tony started out as a software engineer before going to law school. His  passion for technology was evident from an early age as he used the family computer to control the Christmas lights and automate their sprinkler system!

Tyson talks to Tony about lists, technology for golf, rock climbing, and the moment that inspired Tony to jump off the cliff and start HyperDraft, and how the pandemic fueled it into full swing.

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TB: OK, welcome Tony Thai to another edition of the Legal Dispatch. I’m Tyson Ballard from Legal Operations Consulting at SYKE, and I’m joined by the awesome Tony Thai, cofounder of HyperDraft, an amazing legal technology tool. And if you want to keep abreast of all the things HyperDraft, you can catch them on Twitter and Instagram. And the handle is @HyperDraftInc and if you want to check out their website, it’s hyperdraft.ai.

So welcome Tony. You’ve joined us from Willie Nelson’s ranch in Calabasas. How is Willie?

TT: Really doing great. Thanks, Tyson. Excited to be on and thanks for having us.

TB: Excellent. I really love the strategically placed cushion in the background there as well.

TT: It’s not strategically placed, it just wound up there. But yeah, everything’s HyperDraft branded in my household. I’m wearing a non-HyperDraft shirt on a rare occasion because that’s pretty much all I wear now.

TB: So excellent. Maybe just as an introduction it would be great. Just tell us what you do, who you work for, and what is HyperDraft?

TT: Yeah, so I’m CEO and Chief Engineer for HyperDraft. We build legal tech tooling for legal professionals. We started with document generation and have since branched out. But our day-to-day and the clients we work for is basically any legal department. Anyone that’s a lawyer or legal adjacent we build software for. From stuff, that’s as simple as, you know peers “just, let me crank out these documents that are based on forms” to “let me ingest this large data set and drive that to create legal documents for us.” We kind of run the game in terms of doc-gen, but anything related to generating legal or compliance documents is upper alley.

TB: Excellent. And when was it started?

TT: I started it informally probably five or six years ago now. I have to add a year every single time I talk about this. I always forget. But yeah, about five or six years ago, I had this idea that we were kind of incubating while I was working in-house and at law firms and kind of worked on it on the side of anyone, you know, anyone who’s a listener, who’s dealt with lawyers, who knows lawyers. Things like I had a side gig from like 10:00 PM to 3:00 AM every single night coding a side project. So that’s how it got its start and we launched. During the swing out of this last pandemic is when we went full-time. So full-time on this probably about three years.

TB: Excellent. And since you’ve been full-time, what does the day in the life of Tony look like? Like what’s, what’s an average day?

TT: Yeah, average day, well, every day is, you know, these days every day can be drastically different. But I try to keep some rituals in place. I’ll wake up, have a cup of coffee and then start on my list. I do a list at the beginning of every day and then at the end of every day, just so I don’t forget stuff. Because otherwise I’ll forget to do stuff and I’ll just ring stack or rank order what I think is like really important for that day, kind of review the list from the last night. And I’ll kind of use that as my attack plan.

Then first things first, for every morning as we jump on a team stand-up call, so you know, around 9:00 am I’ll jump on with the executive team. We’ll talk about, you know, initiatives or missions for that day or that week and then we’ll break and go off and do our own thing. And try to get some, you know. Some workouts in there, but I’m not always successful you know as you can relate to probably Tyson, is like the best plans of mice of men, right? I try to get a workout in. But the typical running from meeting to meeting and then doing design work and then engineering.

TB: And in terms of workouts, what’s your flavour there? I don’t think I can see a gym probably close by to you. But is it running? Is it gym? Is it mountain bike, is it rock climbing? What is it?

TT: I’m eclectic when it comes to these activities. I do like rock climbing but it’s a whole pain to get to the gym and get all the gear there, but the stuff I do most commonly is going to runs. These days, I’m trying to get back into golf a little bit more. Actually, I do have a gym. It’s not strategically placed but it’s outside. So, it’ll be between lifting, going to the golf range or playing a quick nine holes.

TB: Yeah, yeah, cool. I always find it’s quite interesting to speak to, I mean you guys are not quite in startup phase. Probably you’re heading towards scale up even almost, but what do you find is the most interesting and challenging part of your role?

TT: That’s a good question. I think people, I think there’s a misnomer. So early on when you’re in startup mode, it’s just a jumbled mess, right? You’re kind of doing 50 different things all the time, trying to figure out what works. And then, you know, you get to our phase where it’s like more steady state, “OK, we figured out what we need to do.” But I’ve always been kind of surprised by the amount of learning and adapting that we do on a week-to-week basis. I think people get into this mindset that you know, “oh, yeah, you’ll set this and then you’ll set a Q, you know, quarter goal and you kind of just drive to that quarter goal” and yeah, we do that. But I think every week presents its own challenges and new opportunities.

Then the question is do we tackle this challenge or opportunity head-on right now or is it something we can deal with later? And so I think as an interesting, kind of leadership, aspect that I’ve learned over the past few months even is identifying when you can punt an item so saying no to projects or saying no to clients and saying no to what a lot of people think is crazy, great opportunities have been really interesting for me because a year ago my mentality would’ve been: “oh say yes to it, right? Like say yes to it, I’ll do anything. Well, we got to do it to make money and grow, grow, grow.” But these days, what I found interesting is being presented with a lot more strategic options and then making the decision not to do it typically. So yeah, that’s been a lesson for us as a team.

TB: Yeah, yeah, that’s really interesting. I think sometimes when you’re faced with incredibly ambitious growth targets, which normally startups and scale-ups are, that’s kind of the main focus. Saying no to things is incredibly hard because quite often the mentality is just to say yes to everything and then work out how to deliver it afterwards. But sometimes that either can damage your reputation and then sometimes you just can’t deliver on what you’ve just said yes to as well. So yeah, it’s something quite interesting. Is that something, do you think that is across the whole company or is that something that you make those decisions and then that kind of culture, I guess, of kind of, saying no to things is that it’s your prerogative or is it something that is adopted across?

TT: That’s a good question, too. I mean, I don’t want it to be a cultural thing to drive to say no to things, especially in engineering, right? We want to be able to say yes. But I think everyone is presented with a similar challenge. Actually, something I learned early on when starting to lead teams is, sometimes they’ll ask people to do things, but I intended it to be like “let me add this to your list of things to do, not make this a priority one.” “Do this first before everything else.” And then I come back and ask about some other thing that we’ve asked that person to do a few weeks ago. And there the priority has shifted and so.

That’s a good point in the sense that like, yeah, I’ve tried to get in better at communicating priorities, and I think it’s up to every team member to figure out, “OK, you know, when another teammate asked me to do this, is it a priority one or is it priority zero? Is it priority two?” So I think prioritization is something that is top of mind for the team. Because we all have limited bandwidth, and we have to use it wisely and I don’t want everyone working around the clock so. Yeah. I think prioritization is, definitely top of mind. It’s something that’s kind of started to become more embedded into the culture and is something that we try to talk about openly pretty frequently.

TB: Yeah, yeah, that’s correct. Good tips. I’m always interested to know the internal conversation that you had with yourself when you went from a cushy, full-time salary, but having the moonlighting gig on the side through to: “All right I’m going to jump off the cliff now” not jump off the cliff literally, but figuratively, like in terms of what was the internal conversation that you had with yourself or maybe you had with a partner? And what triggered that point? And what adjustments did you have to make in terms of your life at that point?

TT: Yeah, so…just to be clear, I was an entrepreneur before going to law. When you’re heading down the law route, what’s interesting is that, as you get trained as a lawyer, they kind of slowly beat the risk tolerance out of you. They just beat that out of you. You’re not far off when you say to “jump off the cliff” because a lot of people, when I told them my decision, were like: “Do you need to spend some time thinking about this like some more”, “This is crazy, Tony.” I’m like “Oh no. I know.” I’m doing like “I know what I’m doing, I did the math.” Because for a lot of people I was reaching the top and so it’s kind of odd to jump off before I’ve been able to technically reap the rewards. You know, for me it was a mix of internal dialogue and then, I was very fortunate having my clients as a lawyer. My clients were my advisors, and they were the people I was talking to on a day-to-day basis. I would render legal advice for them. They’d call me up and we talked through the business plan, what do I think, what are the opportunities, how do we de-risk stuff? Again, another misnomer is that a lot of these Silicon Valley types are cowboys, and they jump on their horses and just ride off into the sunset and try to figure out what to do. It’s a lot more planned. The successful ones are a lot more planned. And it’s a lot more strategic than that. It’s not just, “I had an idea, let me go, quit my job and go do this. Let me figure this out. Let’s do all this planning.”

So, by the time I left, I felt pretty confident in what we were doing. All the numbers are not always 100%, right. There’s still a very large amount of risk that we had – I had to eat by leaving. But the thought process for me was “Listen, there’s a huge gap in this industry. There’s no one really like us that’s doing it. And when I say like us that’s doing it.” I mean like literally lawyers that are coding the actual solution. You know, you have a lot of lawyers that have gotten funding to go do this, but for us it’s not really a huge risk. I know I can execute on this and the second part that I’ll share with people is: my original thought, because we bootstrapped this, I paid for operations myself. We’ve taken on a little bit of cash from friends and family, but no VC money, right? So this has been a bootstrapped business from day one. I’ve saved up all the money that I’ve made over the past to go for this. So yeah, there’s the monetary risk. But for me having the time to think through these problems, work on them like that. I thought about this the other day, yeah, I’d take this risk every single time and any day of the week just because I can be a lawyer pretty much anytime in my career. But like doing this, taking on this type of risk and getting down dirty and building out the solution is not for everyone. It’s not for every stage of your life. And for me, it was a good time to take the leap.

TB: Yeah, really interesting. What about when you hear the word successful…who is the first person that comes to mind and why?

TT: I actually think about my friend Chris Nguyen because he was like one of my advisors. He was a Combinator founder, he founded a huge company, stepped down from the executive team and started another venture. And I consider him successful in my eyes because he doesn’t have any stressors and he gets to work with his friends, right? Like, he’s now at a stage in his career, in his life where now, rightfully so, his ideas are financed off the bat. And people are fighting to get in and fund his idea because they know he’s such a great executor.

And then the second aspect of it is because he spent all his time putting on all this effort into building his last few businesses, he’s built up his network of friends that he trusts, that are experts that are top of their field, and so, when he wants to recruit a team to work with him, it’s usually his friends, people he trusts and he’s had these relationships with for years.  That’s my view of success, is being able to work with your friends, people that you’d like and enjoy. Kind of just not have the other stressors of like the basic human needs that I think a lot of people stress about, which is paying for a house or a roof over your head and food and your family members and stuff like that. So, I’m not going to say he’s got it made, but he’s the most successful person in my eyes.

TB: Yeah, yeah. Really cool. I have to look him up. I always find it interesting that when I speak to a lot of legal tech founders that quite a lot of them have mentors or people on their board or investors, even people that are interested in the beginning, that are completely outside the legal space. Well, what’s your view on how important that is and then probably more around the whole term of legal tech versus just tech and, potentially the bubble that we live in do you think you really need to have? I guess given that you’re the subject matter expert probably in the legal space and when you’re building up a business to solve a problem, do you think you need equally people outside of that legal space or do you think it’s better to have people inside that legal space?

TT: Yeah, so legal tech is an odd duckling. Legal tech is definitely an odd duckling. So I’ll talk about it in like having outside perspectives is always good in every single industry. Now I was on a lot of boards for my clients and, you know I always recommended having that independent director and folks that come outside of the industry because you can carry a lot of learnings from other industries into that particular industry and that diverse perspective can give you a serious competitive edge, right? If you take a learning from another field and it’s never been thought of in the field that you’re trying to tackle a problem for, it’s very beneficial.

Now with legal tech, I think it’s a dual edged sword. I think it’s really important to have those early kind of supporters, some of those be non-lawyers and the reaction we usually get, which I love is “I thought you guys already had this.” That’s the best type of reaction that I can hope for is like yeah, it’s so obvious right? This should be a solved for problem. But it’s not, right? And then typically I stop it there because the problem is trying to fit other people’s solutions into the legal field it’s a bit of a slippery slope, right? The problem that I’ve seen in in venture funds do this all time as they do pattern recognition, so they take a pattern from an industry they’ve either currently are interested in or have seen in another field and they’ll just reapply it. But SAS for legal tech. It is not your run and gun. Let me figure out, how this works on the fly. Legal and compliance technologies are high risk, high priority for a lot of businesses. And so you cannot take that approach of “we’ll figure out on the fly”. You have to plan for it and that’s that tension that you have to resist when working with folks who are not SME or subject matter experts in the legal field is because they don’t understand that perspective as much and so that’s how I view working with that in legal tech. Legal tech for us is just tech, right? We treat it just like tech. And the reason why we do that is… I think from a design perspective, It’s so underserved, right? Like usually we show our solution to people and the first comment is like “this looks really good Tony” and like before they even get into the substance, which is interesting to us because it’s like you’ve been denied like the basic upgrade from the 90’s based software that all looks like gray and blue, like bright blue schemes and we’re kind of bringing it to the future and so that’s always like a top of mind thing that I think a lot of other legal tech companies struggle with is how much design do we add to this and then who designs it.

I think another kind of not foot fault but, you know, common mistake that a lot of lawyers make is we’re told that we have to hire product managers, product designers, engineers to manage this stuff. And I’ve heard this from, want to say, no less than six different legal tech founders in the last three months. And these guys have been around for six, seven years, eight years, nine years. And they’re just like, “I really wish I didn’t relinquish control around design so early on because I was told I’m not good enough to do that.” Anyone can design a product, right? We start with user stories. Anyone can design a base product. You should stick to it, and you should explain that to the engineers around the current process. Not be kind of strong armed into building a solution that you didn’t even think about, or you didn’t really intend for. Start there. Start with the value proposition because you started with a problem that you’re trying to solve for. Start there and then grow it. I’ve even heard this from investors being told to go wide, right? “Go wide, go wide, go wide because you want to get as much users as possible.” No, that might be the solution for a lot of other industries , but if you look at pharmaceuticals, you never hear somebody say like “go wide” That’s not a common phrase except for these SAS unicorns that everyone’s trying to make a bet for. So yeah, that that’s my view on legal tech. That’s got a bit of a ramble.

TB: No, it’s really good. And I think that, because the last podcast I did was with the founder of BRYTER and he was saying a little bit of a similar thing in that. It’s a little bit like a legal path to success. In terms of “work really hard and you’ll get to partner in a law firm one day.” It’s almost like there’s a formula to being a successful technology company and everyone’s holding up a Unicorn as the definition of success, which is maybe why you have to start wearing turtlenecks one day. But in many respects, like what he was saying is that to be honest, nobody knows any more than anyone else, and actually, nobody knows that much. Maybe you can be a subject matter expert, granted. But that there’s no path that you need to follow to get to be successful or to solve a problem. Maybe there is for certain things but like certainly when it comes to building a company and creating a product I think it’s a little bit different.  Well changing it up a little bit, what about if you were to give a Ted Talk on something that is not in your main area of expertise, what would be the talk that you would give and why?

TT: What would be the talk? The Ted talk? The premise being it’s like some sort of profound, question that I’m answering. Actually, you know, seems like a cop out, but I think, what you just described about the journey, right? When I was growing up, I started off as software engineer and kind of just finding my way and really stressed all the time because I was just like, “I don’t know what my next check’s going to look like” and constantly stressing about how to get paid. And then when I went to law school, I was fixated on what you just said. I was fixated on the path because my entire life felt like out of control and, you know, when I entered the legal field, I was like, “Ohh, finally,  a way for me to just follow the rules of the game and then become successful and then not worry about anything else in life”, right? That was as immature as that was, that was like my thought process. But even in my legal career, I zigged and other folks zagged and people called me crazy. But by the standards of like being a lawyer, I was successful, and I kept working up the ladder and now we’re starting this company again, stuff that 20 year old me would have never thought that I would have done again because of all that stress. But you just learn to accept the current situation and the opportunities that are given to you and figure out a pathway there and that makes life way more exciting, and you get less anxious around and you’re kind of more focused on what’s right in front of you? So yeah, there’s the deep, profound you know, career journey, professional journey kind of talk that I would do.

TB: Yeah. And I guess maybe keeping on that theme, a little bit, What, what advice would you give to your younger self now that you’ve gone down that route, but then obviously dipped out of the journey or took a different journey? Is that because actually because you know deep down, you probably got just a first for disruption or just do it? You probably had that path in you anyway? Because I’m a bit like that. I feel like I’m a bit of a gypsy. I can’t stay in one place for too long. Just in terms of living in places, I always get a bit restless, even if someone just stick me in a place where and say “you can’t leave”, then that would probably drive me crazy. But you know, what advice would you give to your younger self, and do you think that is kind of why you dipped back into entrepreneur land because, it was always inside you?

TT: Yeah. I don’t actually have to think about this question because I was given that advice at that age actually. So other people saw it and I did it, right? And I kept fighting it. So, I had, 3 different law professors saying, like, “you won’t stay in big law”, and I was so offended. I was so offended. I’m like, “what do you mean I can’t survive?” I could totally survive. Like, “we didn’t say that” and they all separately said this to me. “Didn’t say that you wouldn’t survive. Said that you wouldn’t be happy with it.” And I just could not wrap my head around it. And so all this advice that I’ve gotten from Michael Chozo at at USC, he’s my mentor there, like that’s all stuff I go back after, you know, four or five years saying: “Yep, you were right. I should have just shut up and listened.” I got that advice all the time. I think some of it is just like, you have to, you know, it sounds so cheesy, but like, you kind of have to find yourself at at the right time and nothing replaces experience, right? Nothing replaces experiencing pain and growth. And so people can lecture all day. I can give myself advice, other people advice all day. And often I find myself, you know, talking to my friends. I’m like, “I gave that kid advice. He’s not going to listen to come back in five years”. He’ll say the same thing I said to my mentor, saying, “damn it, my life would have been so much easier had I listened to you.” My main advice is: listen more. Listen more to that advice and actually take that into account as opposed to kind of listening to it, being angry that someone you know called it and then trying everything you can to resist it. Because I think my journey would have been a little bit easier had I listened more.

TB: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point actually. I think listening is probably by far the most underrated communication skill and something like I see daily in terms of not being practiced in the right way. I mean obviously I think as a CEO and founder as well and your team is growing, listening to your team is hugely important and also your customers. Do you have any tips around how you can get better at listening? And what you do?

TT: I think for me, active listening is always something that like I’ve tried to work on since I was younger like being social and contributing to conversations is a relatively new thing in my life. Like, I didn’t start doing that until I was like 18 or 19 because I was the nerdy, shy kid. Never really spoke, just kind of listened constantly. So that’s kind of default for me. I think the listening part that I’ve learned about over the last few years is like I, you know, I have a problem with extremes. Like, I do one or the other, right. Like I’m really good at listening. I’m really good at talking. But like In between, you know you can ask my ex-girlfriends and they’ll tell you: ” He’s not great. The in between.” But listening without bias like that, like that’s something to be conscious and, I say listening without bias, I mean without bringing your own perspective to it, without listening to what the other person is saying. The bias that I was having over the past few years that I’ve been working on is, I would listen to people’s advice and I would take it.

And I don’t know if you know this, Tyson, but not everyone gives great advice. So you can’t just take everybody’s advice. I give you a great example when I started doing VC pitches or like pitching to investors, I would ask each one after like if something went wrong, what’s something I could do to improve. And I was bouncing around like a like a pinball because everybody is a little bit different. So, the data point just kept being placed in the chart and I was just bouncing around it, right? And the best approach is a best fit line, right? The best approach is finding the line that fits most of the points, not every single one perfectly. If you get into this statistic side of it, it’s overfitting a line, if you overfit the line it would be bad. Hearing him exactly. It’s the same problem when it comes to your team, right? Like you can’t listen to every single person on your team, you can make most people happy, not everyone happy all the time. When you learn that, you find a lot more comfort in people not being happy with you. And yeah, it’s stuff that I definitely work on day-to-day.

TB: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That’s not easy. How big is your team now?

TT: Oh man! We grow every single day. I literally don’t even know. I think we’re at like 15 folks and a handful of other contractors which we’re bringing on full time so, yeah. We’re like 15. We continue to grow. Probably one third of the size we need to be, if I’m being completely honest with you.

TB: Do you find like the whole thing of setting a strategy and kind of you know and achieving that and a vision and things like that. One of the things that I found with a lot of startups that have been successful or founders around legal tech is that they’ve adjusted along the way, but they’ve always been focused on a bit of a true north in terms of the problem that they’re solving and the mission that they have. Do you guys have a true north and what is that?

TT: Our true north. I love this question. Our true north is building tools that make lawyers human, right? So, our true north is anything that we can build that gets in that process that replaces them as being a technician back to being a professional or counselor. And so that’s our true north. Any product, any tool that we build is with that in mind. That’s our first question. Is it useful? Will people find value at it? We don’t build stuff that’s pretty just for the sake of being pretty. That’s why you’ll hear me rant about like, dashboards. Dashboards drive me up a wall because like, nobody’s running a legal department saying “let me go check my legal dashboard for the day and like, figure out what needs to get done.” So our true north is building tools that make lawyers human again. But I would say when I first started like I would do that mission statement, that preaching about the mission statement. But that’s not a great way of approaching running teams.

So when I talk to teams like our teams whether it’s like one team working on engineering or another team work on product design, I set very much smaller milestones for them, much smaller, kind of mini visions for them because that is way more tangible and that gives people something to check off at the end of a month or a quarter or a project that I think is what is our secret to success. Those milestones are a lot more important than just saying like “Hey, this is the vision, this is all we’re going to go for”. Because my job is to think like that and sort of communicate that to our customers but, the team’s job is to execute, and they can’t execute based on a broad vision. I try to keep that statement at a minimal these days and just focus on “Your goal, your mission is to complete this task, this project in this way” and that’s a lot more tangible for our team.

TB: Yeah, I do find that quite often you move from the strategic vision to measuring how you’re good at achieving the vision without much thought about the practical in between in terms of how it’s broken down and the contribution. That’s quite an often mistake. Because we’re starting to run out a little bit of time, I’ll ask a fun question. What is the best purchase you’ve made in the last six months?

TT: Best purchase I’ve made… Do you golf at all, Tyson?

TB: I do, yeah.

TT: I bought a launch monitor, it was expensive, but I bought a launch monitor

TB: You’d have to explain that what is to me. I’m old school, like, low tech, borrowed clubs and more about who’s serving the drinks on the golf cart as opposed to …

TT: You’re a fun golfer, I’m a fun golfer too. But I like to play. I like to win. A launch monitor is this doppler radar that they made, kind of portable. And you put it behind you, and you swing and it gives you all these stats around how far the ball went. I know, I see you smiling because you’re like, “what a nerd.” Yes, I’m a huge nerd. That’s been the best, honestly, the best purchase I’ve made in years. Frankly, my swing has improved so much and I’m really dialing it in. And, you know, I set it up at home so I can play golf without having to go to the driving range. I can get up and swing a little bit even while I’m at home, so that’s top of mind for me.

TB: Nice. Well, you would definitely get along well with our CEO, Alistair. Maybe not so high tech, but a lot of the people that we play with, they have the watchers and the  binoculars that tell you what club to play and everything like that, how far the green is and things like that. So yeah, but golfing’s expensive in in America, right?

TT: It’s pretty expensive. Yeah, it’s an expensive hobby. But my friends are all, you know, members at nice clubs, so I don’t have to worry too much about paying ridiculous membership fees.

TB: Yeah. I’m in Portugal, it’s a little bit more affordable, but nice courses as well. Maybe hopefully one day we can play some golf. What about the final question, whichI did actually ask you to think about before the podcast. But I did ask you to think about. So we can plug it when we put the podcast and also, generally, I’m always interested to hear, what would your theme song be?

TT: Does it have to be like a copyright free, you know, in order to list it?

TB: No, not at all. We just put a YouTube link. So yeah, go for it.

TT: I think, this has been a consistent player on my Spotify playlist is Lupe Fiasco’s Mural. That that’s it’s a long one. It’s an 8-minute song, but I would say that’s my theme song, long winded.

TB: Well, what’s the what’s the song about?

TT: It’s a mural. It’s about his life. It’s about everything that’s kind of contributed to his, like, creative side. And everyone has a different interpretation of, you know, how that story goes. And so yeah, that’s set. I’ll bring it home with that theme of talking about like just going with the flow, with the journey. Yeah, I think everyone should check it out just to get their own interpretation of it.

TB: Excellent. Well, I’m a big hip hop fan and I think Common has a similar one. I can’t remember. “I used to love her” – Which is a bit of a song talking about his life, but also like in hip hop in general and things like that. So yeah, great. “Lupe Fiasco- Mural,” I’ll have to check that out. Well, we’ve come to the end, so thank you so much. I know you were – you did warn me that you’re a reluctant guest a little bit, but hopefully the conversation has been good. I know from my side, I’ve learned a lot. So, yeah, really appreciate the time and thanks so much.

TT: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Like I told you before, I’m not the biggest podcast fan, but I’ve been really lucky with the hosts. And yeah, I’m glad this is this got set up.

TB: Excellent. Thanks, Tony.

TT: Alright, thank you.